08-25-1992 PLANNING AND ZONING MINUTES
The Schertz Planning and Zoning Commission convened in a
regular session on Tuesday, August 25, 1992 at 7:00 P.M. in
the Municipal Complex Conference Room, 1400 Schertz Parkway.
Those present were as follows:
PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION CITY STAFF
BOB ANDREWS, CHAIRMAN STEVE SIMONSON,
KEITH VAN DINE, SECRETARY ASST. CITY MANAGER
MERWIN WILLMAN NORMA ALTHOUSE,
GEORGE VICK RECORDING SECRETARY
.BOBBIE VONADA
LEONARD ZYCH
KEN GREENWALD, COUNCILMAN
MEMBERS ABSENT
JIM SHRIVER, VICE-CHAIRMAN
#1 CALL TO ORDER
Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:00 P.M.
#2 APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Regular Session August 11, 1992
Merwin Willman made a motion to approve the minutes for the
regular session August 11, 1992. George Vick seconded the
motion and the vote was unanimous in favor. Motion carried.
#3 CITIZENS' INPUT OTHER THAN AGENDA ITEMS
There was none.
#4 CONSIDER AND MARE RECOMI~NDATION: Comprehensive Plan
Update
Chairman Andrews informed the Commission he had requested
this item be put on the agenda just to keep them on track
with where they are on updating the Comprehensive Plan. Mr.
Andrews than asked Steve Simonson if he had any input.
Mr. Simonson indicated that all reports that came in from
the various departments had been turned over to Leonard Zych
who is working on the Plan.
Steve Simonson then reported that the APA luncheon today was
a real eye-opener. San Antonio's Comprehensive Plan is
nothing but goals and objectives. Mr. Simonson commented he
has put something together the Commission could do based on
utilities.
Leonard Zych advised he has gone through the Comprehensive
Plan and the input from the various departments trying to
come up with goals and objectives and it is a very
frustrating process.
Mr. Zych remarked he is very disheartened because no one
seems to be committed to Long-term goals for the City and
letting things flow from there.
Chairman Andrews stressed that, by some means, the City has
got to have a Comprehensive Plan. Mr. Andrews said that
something he's learned from all the APA conferences he's
attended is that the Comprehensive Plan of a city is what's
going to be looked at in the future. When development starts
again, the Comprehensive Plan will be the driving force
behind that development.
Leonard Zych stated that goals and objectives by community
leaders should be the thing that makes the City go. Then we
trust the administrative staff to carry out those goals and
objectives and the Mayor and City Council to support them.
Mr. Zych noted, that in his opinion, rather than having a
big view of where the City should go, the elected officials
are interested only in elements of constituent satisfaction
to insure their reelection and the staff is interested only
in growth within its own departments to perpetuate itself.
The people in charge are oblivious to what a Comprehensive
Plan is about.
Mr. Zych expressed dissatisfaction with what he called the
"good old boy and good old girl" system sustained by members
of the City Council.
Keith Van Dine pointed out to Mr. Zych that what he's saying
about the system could also be said about the Senate and
Congress. That's the way it is.
As far as individual departments go, Mr. Van Dine observed
that what they get into are turf wars. Each department has
to promote their own as most important in order to compete
for their share of the money needed to operate.
Leonard Zych emphasized that he thinks City Council should.
set aside part of its time for non-partisan issues.
Bobbie Vonada asked what happened to all the citizen.
committees .
Merwin Willman replied they asked for volunteers and only a
handful came in. The citizens are ..complacent and
participation is null.
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Mr. Willman went on to say we must get commitment and
involvement from the City Manager, City Council and citizens.
We should have public meetings and get citizen input. Mr.
Willman said he is told the survey that was taken is citizen
input but he doesn't agree that it is.
Leonard Zych asked why it is that the City Manager and City
Council don't take the initiative toward commitment and
involvement in updating the Comprehensive Plan and Mervin
Willman replied we haven't ask them.
.Chairman Andrews remarked he thought a letter had been
drafted and signed by all the Commissioners and sent to City
Council saying they needed a commitment to get this underway
and completed.
Leonard Zych then made reference to the letter sent by Steve
Simonson to all the various departments asking for their
5-year plan and information on longer range forecasts such as
a 10 and 20 year outlook. Mr. Zych commented there is a lot
of responsibility delegated to the departments and certainly
in any department you want to look at, the person .that does
the work day in and day out (water meter reader, street
worker) has an idea where the problems are and that surfaces
to their supervisors and those supervisors have an input.
However, when you ask about where the City should go in the
future, the reply from the department heads is very inept and
self-serving.
Mervin .Willman indicated he thought the. Commission made a
mistake in asking each department for 5 and 10 year plans.
Naturally they are going to try and promote their own
department. Mr. Willman indicated he is not concerned with
each department's needs, but rather with the good of the City
overall and where we're going in the future.
Leonard Zych said he would argue with that and say we need to
put it in perspective because the departments have a point of
view and that is needed.
Mr. Zych went on to say that somehow we need to figure out
how to light a fire under the citizens. What do the citizens
care about? How do we get them to say what they want?
That's what's missing.
What else is missing is the City Manager, the Mayor and the
Council. So from the bottom of the pyramid and the top of
the pyramid we get zilch. We sit somewhere on the top third
of the pyramid and try to synthesize what we think. That's
not unimportant, but we can't do it all by ourselves and
therein lies the frustration.
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Merwin Willman commented he, personally, does not think we
have really asked the Council for their commitment.
Leonard Zych asked if the Council really gives a damn what we
do here. Mr. Zych said he gets they feeling they don't.
Merwin Willman emphasized that yes, they do.
Leonard Zych stated he was told the Commission is powerful.
He thinks it is a "poo-poo" committee right now.
Merwin Willman asked Leonard Zych why he is on the Commission
if he thinks that and Mr. Zych replied because he wants to
be an influence, he doesn't want to be a "poo-poo" person.
Merwin Willman accused Leonard Zych of not believing what the
Commission tells him. Mr. Zych responded by saying it's not
that he doesn't believe them, it's that the performance and
evidence of what they say is not translated into action by
City Council.
To this, Merwin Willman told Leonard Zych he must not have
read the ordinances to see what the Commission is responsible r
for and what gives them their authority.
Leonard Zych maintained he had read the ordinances and said
that's not the argument. The point is that the level of what
we discuss here is minor stuff and when the minor stuff gets
elevated to City Council, it gets wrapped around the axle.
Mr. Zych then asked what the Commission had done since he'd
been here that's had an impact on the City of Schertz. He's
been on the Commission for 6 months and they've done nothing
of impact.
Merwin Willman remarked that, unfortunately, they're in a
very dead period right now.
Leonard Zych, referring to the Goofy Golf sign, indicated the
Commission can't even get that done and that's a "poo-poo"
thing.
Merwin Willman reminded Mr. Zych the Goofy Golf sign was
sent to the Commission for our comments and not our decision.
Leonard Zych then commented the Commission has no decisions
here. Right?
Merwin Willman retorted that yes they do.
Chairman Andrews noted they just haven't had any since Mr.
Zych had been with them.
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Merwin Willman brought up the approval of the preliminary and
final plats of the Cal Stone Subdivision as decisions on the
part of the Commission.
Leonard Zych then commented the Commission had a request from
two citizens who wanted to violate all the rules in the world
and operate a shop in their back yard and that's relatively
small stuff.
Merwin Willman pointed out that request was forwarded to the
Board of Adjustment for a decision.
Keith 'Van Dine .explained you have to realize when City
Council asks for input, there is a difference between input
and decision. When they ask for our input, they are open to
our opinion.
Leonard Zych noted that by the same token, if you sit on City
Council and have a Planning and Zoning Commission and they
offer input, that input should be taken seriously and ruling
against that input would come only if there was overwhelming
evidence it is not beneficial to the City.
Merwin Willman acknowledged that is the way it works.
Leonard Zych admitted he hasn't seen City Council reverse .
anything so he can't say.
Chairman Andrews told Mr. Zych he will see them reverse very
few things.
Leonard Zych commented he doesn't like the language of some
of the things Council puts out. They had a lawyer there on
the thing about the garage sale signs (which was a "poo-poo"
thing) and the regulation they put out is so ambiguous the
way it's written, it allows anybody to do anything they want
despite the fact it was a good thing when it went forward. .
Mr. Zych said he doesn't know if Merwin Willman wrote it or
what.
Merwin Willman assured Mr. Zych that Planning and Zoning had
nothing to do with the ordinance on garage sale signs.
Chairman Andrews added that he can't disagree with Leonard
Zych as far as some of the language, but that language comes
from the attorney and he's never been able to read anything
written by an attorney yet and understand it.
Leonard Zych respectfully disagreed saying he thinks somebody
just couldn't type or it was, written in such a manner,
somebody just typed what was written and typed the wrong
thing.
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Mr. Zych further stated that's not the issue. The issue is
there is not a dedication on the part of City Council. and
there is not an overwhelming ground support or feeling on the
part of citizens of Schertz as to, where the City wants to go.
Mr. Zych told the Commission if he's wrong, please tell him
so. The Commission is caught in the middle, but who are they
to drive the train.
Bobbie Vonada pointed out that somebody has to.
Chairman Andrews commented you have to have a conductor and
an .engineer and this train is going to run across .the
Commission's tracks.
Leonard Zych observed that failure to do a Comprehensive Plan
means we react to whatever comes down the track. Instead of
having a beautiful City, instead of having a Schertz Parkway,
(whoever did that, thank God) and whoever has been wise
enough to do whatever we've done in our acquisition of land
and our plan to move forward, it just isn't going to happen
except that we're going to be accidented upon by events. You
ask why I'm here - I don't want to be dumped on by events and
I'm here to voice an opinion. And, my opinion is as worthy
as anybody's. With regard to the Comprehensive Plan, it's
amuck right now.
Keith Van Dine, referring back to Leonard Zych's questions
about lighting a fire under the citizens, said that to get
citizen involvement it has to be something that effects them
directly.
Mr. Van Dine gave an example from his experience with the
Criminal Justice System. Everyone in Bexar Co. agreed we
need half-way houses, but don't put them in my neighborhood.
An example closer to home - we need landfills, but not in my
back yard.
Merwin Willman related that at the luncheon today, San
Antonio mentioned they had public input on their proposed
plan and whether or not they had 5 people attend or 50, they
at least had meetings and they're going to have more.
Keith Van Dine suggested putting a rough draft of a Plan
together -and then having a meeting for citizen input so they
have something to look at and can see how it effects them.
Then you will get positive and negative response. If you
have a meeting, you have to give them something to like or
not like.
Merwin Willman. stressed. that some of the citizens are
self-serving and they need a conductor.
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Chairman Andrews commented if you hold a town meeting, on a
Comprehensive Plan, without an agenda and asked what they
would like, the first thing the citizens will want is their
taxes lowered.
Keith Van Dine interjected that before that, they'll say what
is a Comprehensive Plan. You're going to have to explain
what you're there for and what you are looking for.
Leonard Zych declared he thought that most citizens would
agree to keeping their taxes the same or lower unless they
could see where a relatively small increase would be
worthwhile for something the City is doing.
Mr. Zych further stated that just as we have a lot of
disenchantment around the country with the political system,
we have the same situation in Schertz. We have gross
inefficiencies in departments which, if corrected, would
allow an available supply of resources/money to serve the
interest of growth.
There are two issues there:
(1) Are we anywhere as efficient as we can be within the
City?
(2) What's a fair tax share to pay for where we want the
City to go?
It's not any different from wanting your children to have a
. ~ good education if you are willing to pay whatever it costs to
get them a good education, provided the educational community
puts the money into the things that help the children versus
the overhead.
There's a big disconnect. The City doesn't put the budget
through the Planning and Zoning Commission to look at and yet
sit year in and year out with vested interest in promoting
their own growth, and here we are supposed to be Planning and
Zoning. Until somebody says.. that whatever the Comprehensive
.Plan dictates drives the budget as opposed to the budget of
individual departments driving the City, the City Manager and
City Council nothing will change. The City Manager and City
Council argue about the frills, the City Council and the
Mayor argue about the little pittance things, but underneath
it all the City is driven by the department chiefs and the
City Manager.
So, all the budget processes go on, but we want to turn the
table upside down and say here's the future and here's where
we want to go and here are. the priorities when day in and day
out the City administration is saying here are the priorities
and here's what we spend our money on.
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Merwin Willman emphasized that the Comprehensive Plan has
nothing to do with day in day out operations, it has to do
with the future of the City.
Leonard Zych maintained that it does in the sense that every
year you don't have a Comprehensive Plan, the City staff
drives what the budget does the next year and the year after
and the year after and the year after, etc., and so there's
no control as to where we want to go other than the strongest
individual departments getting the biggest share of the
budget based on what they want to do.
Merwin Willman still insisted that Planning and Zoning has
nothing to do with the budget and never has. That's the
Council and City Manager's problem. The budget has no place
at all in the Comprehensive Plan, only the capital
improvement part of the. planning.
Leonard Zych disagreed saying the Comprehensive Plan should
say how large of a police force there's going to be.
Merwin Willman said that's wrong.
Leonard Zych noted that's where they differ. Why should we
allow the police force to have unprecedented growth as it has
here without population growth?
Merwin Willman admitted he doesn't follow Mr. Zych on that
one and added that we're getting way off the line of the
Comprehensive Plan.
Chairman Andrews had several questions for thought in
relationship to Leonard Zych's comments as far as Planning
and Zoning and where we're at:
(1) Who planned the Schertz Parkway?
(2) Who planned the extensions/annexations of the City?
Mr. Andrews .stressed that's what our Comprehensive Plan
should be entailing., One of the things we sat down and
worked out was what we want our road network to look like 10
years from now.
Continuing on, Mr. Andrews said we have to have. a
Comprehensive Plan because down the road when the "boom"
comes back, and it will, if a developer comes in and wants to
develop something not covered in our current zoning
classifications, it will go right back to the Comprehensive
Plan to see if we planned where we were going to go. An
example is Schirmerville when it was annexed. It came in as
PD and then we sat down and decided what we wanted it to look
like and as a result, came up with the new zoning
classification of R/A - Residential/Agriculture. That's
another example of the kinds of things a Comprehensive Plan
should address.
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Keith Van Dine pointed out you build on the basics. It's
foolish to expect development in an area if you don't know
how they're going to get water.
Chairman Andrews mentioned that when he reads a Comprehensive
Plan he looks at densities of population in given areas, he
looks at future areas of annexation, he looks at how much
area is annexed and in what time frame, and he looks at what
type of zoning should be applied to that area.
Leonard Zych commented he doesn't disagree, but submits that
it's all competition for resources. You can't close your
eyes and put on blindfolds while certain aspects of the City
run amuck and compete for and demand a higher budget without
any reasonable accountability. Mr. Zych said he's. going
right back to the police department and the way they want to
grow with their administrative staff, facilities. and
vehicles.
Chairman Andrews asked if these things wouldn't come from the
City Manager and not from the Comprehensive Plan. Leonard
Zych answered no and Merwin Willman answered yes.
Leonard Zych questioned why tax money .should go to that when
. everything is in competition and when there is no
accountability. Where is the accountability in the police
force to say they'll hold the crime rate to certain figures?
They say they need another lieutenant, they need another
secretary, they need more vehicles. Vehicles sit out here
unused. They don't have a good rotation plan for their
vehicles and Mr. Zych said he could go on and on. You can
look at the fire department and the water department and on
and on, and improvements can be made. You can't do a
Comprehensive Plan and set aside 80~ of the budget for what
makes the City go and only allow 20~, or 12~, or 8$, or 2$ to .
decide what the future growth of the City has to be.
The Comprehensive Plan has to be comprehensive: It has to be
all inclusive. It doesn't say that on a day to day basis we
tell the City Council and City Manager what to do, but. Mr.
Zych said he think's it's fair game to say we expect an input
from the departments that is reasonable to examine within the
tax base, and with the resources that we have, we have the
right to recommend how much goes to the police based on
population. If you look at the Comprehensive Plan of San
Antonio or any other Comprehensive Plan, those are, in fact,
issues they take on.
Merwin Willman told Leonard Zych he doesn't agree with him.
He's talking about things budget-wise that .the Council talks
about.
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Without attending the budget meetings and the workshops, Mr.
Willman said he doesn't know how Mr. Zych can make the
statements he makes. It sounds like maybe he attends the tax
reform committee meetings. (Mr. Zych denied this.} It also
sounds as if he has the idea that by looking at the budget
you can tell whether they're spending too much money, asking
for too much, or doing something wrong.
Mr. Willman went on to say there is an individual on the tax
reform committee who says the City has too many employees,
but never makes recommendations as to how many they should
cut and .what services should be cut.
Leonard Zych remarked he doesn't believe in that, he believes
in growth. Also, he doesn't believe in being over-balanced
in-one department.
Merwin Willman expressed the opinion he doesn't think they
are over-balanced in one department. Take the police for
example. The City has approximately 24 square miles and lots
of roads to cover. As you annex and take in more land, you
have to grow.
Chairman Andrews related that in all the conferences he's
attended, money has never come up as a step in the
Comprehensive Plan.
Leonard Zych acknowledged he can accept that, but it doesn't
mean he's wrong. Mr. Zych asked the Commission to put the
acid test to it. If you have a Comprehensive Plan for the
future and somehow the resources are not committed to the
Plan that's designed, then the Plan will fail.
Keith Van Dine challenged that statement saying not
necessarily. A Plan must be fluid, it must be. flexible.
Chairman Andrews emphasized that once a Comprehensive Plan is
drawn up and written, it becomes law and any action taken by
any department within a city or any developer who wishes to
come into a city must follow the general meaning of that
Comprehensive Plan.
Mr. Andrews said he has perceived there is still a big
confusion factor about exactly what a Comprehensive Plan is
and what it should cover.-
Steve Simonson reported he has a training book from ICMA,
which is like a bible for city planners and managers, and
there are about 8 pages in it covering all facets of a
Comprehensive Plan. If the Commission would like, he will
make copies for everyone. Everyone wanted copies.
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George Vick asked if the City. Council wants a Comprehensive
Plan. They've never asked for it, the Commission took it.
upon itself to update it.
Keith -Van Dine mentioned that he thought it was a law that a
City had to have a Comprehensive Plan.
Councilman Ken Greenwald replied it is not a law now, but it
will be sometime in the future.
Bobbie Vonada pointed out that, like Steve Simonson mentioned
earlier, in the "Zoning Bulletin" there was a case where a
Planning and Zoning Commission changed the zoning of
.property,. but when challenged, it was reversed because the
new zoning was not in compliance with the Comprehensive Plan.
Mrs. Vonada stated from the last conference she attended,
she found out Schertz is ahead of a lot of cities on this
Comprehensive Plan. She was extremely proud to be from the
City of Schertz. Until the Commission agrees on what a
Comprehensive Plan is, we can't do anything. We've got to
agree on one and .s et it forth and what City Council does is
up to them.
George Vick again brought up the fact that City .Council
hasn't asked-for an updated Comprehensive Plan and asked why
we have to do it if City Council doesn't want it to start
with. Why should we beat our heads against the wall for
nothing?
Bobbie .Vonada .reminded George Vick that somebody has got to
do..it and told Mr. Vick to remember that we volunteered for
this.
Keith Van Dine asked George Vick how he knows City Council
doesn't want it and Mr. Vick replied because we have sent
letters to City Council telling them what we're doing and
have never received an answer of any kind back from .them.
To this, Keith Van Dine reminded Mr. Vick that City Council
is aware of what the Commission is doing and they haven't
asked us not to do it.
Councilman Ken Greenwald remarked that one of the inputs
about a year and' half ago to try and get citizen
participation was a bus tour and a free lunch and very few
citizens showed up.
Bobbie Vonada advised she thinks she and only one other
citizen went on the tour. Mrs. Vonada said that's why. she
wants to stay Saturday at the conference because one o~f the
workshops is on citizen participation.
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Chairman Andrews brought to the Commission's attention the
fact that the APA Conference in October has some good courses
scheduled on comprehensive plans and suggested these
questions discussed tonight might be good ones to bring up at
that time.
Mr. Andrews also commented that between now and the next
meeting Steve Simonson will make copies for them from the
ICMA training book, and said he will go through the steps he
has about working on a Comprehensive Plan because we've got
to get an agreement on what one is before we continue. Mr.
Andrews stated he is going to continue to stay on this until
we get it done or the Commission tells him to stop, and he
doesn't know what he's doing and will be the first to admit
it.
#5 GENERAL DISCUSSION
George Vick•
(a) Reported that at B & J Lawn Service it looks like they're
starting a junkyard. Behind the building there are 6 or 7
junk vehicles inside the chain link fence. Steve Simonson
said he would check into it.
(b) Asked if everyone read the article in the San Antonio-
Express-News about storm water management. Councilman Ken
Greenwald reminded Mr. Vick there is a section on storm
water management in the water section of the Plan.
(c) Mentioned the new church in Cibolo off Jack Hays Blvd.
and the number of curb cuts and the fact that their parking
lot is right on the future roadway.
Keith Van Dine•
(a) Advised there are still lots of potholes in the roads in
the Schirmerville area. This is an issue because the first
time a school bus rolls over on one of those roads, the City
will have a big lawsuit against them.
Bobbie Vonada:
(a) Reported on the condition of Vice-Chairman, Jim Shriven,
who had quadruple bypass surgery yesterday.
(b) Commented she had called the City telephone line and the
Planning and Zoning meeting this evening was not announced.
Chairman Andrews said they had attempted to put it on, but
the system was down temporarily.
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Mervin Willman•
(a) Mentioned that if anyone needs business cards, Norma
Althouse has some with her at the meeting tonight. They come
in handy at the conferences.
Steve Simonson:
(a) Advised he finally has the new floodplain map which is
all up to snuff. Among other things, it brings Eli Whitney
and Cyrus McCormick out of the floodplain and shows the
Schirmerville area clearly. It becomes officially effective
September 30th of this year after approximately 3 and 1/2 to
4 years of work.
Mr. Simonson related he has told the Inspection Department -
if anyone comes in with plans and is anywhere near a
floodplain, they have to have an engineered site plan.
(b) Reported on what has been built in the last 10 years in
the City of Schertz among which are 835 single family homes,
2 large and 1 small apartment complex, and 200 plus lots of
mobile home park. There has also been an upturn in school
population. Mr. Simonson said he has the complete list if
anyone's interested.
#6 ADJOURNMENT
Chairman Andrews adjourned the meeting at 8:15 P.M.
The next regularly scheduled meeting is September 8, 1992.
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