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3-23-23 MinutesPage 1 of 9 SCHERTZ HISTORICAL PRESERVATION COMMITTEE THURSDAY, MARCH 23, 2023 6:00 PM MEETING MINUTES Committee Members in Attendance: Becki Babcock Christopher Hormel Dr. Miguel Vazquez Roz Wise Committee Members Absent: Barbara Hall Patrick Holmes City Representatives in Attendance: Brian James Cyndi Simmons Jill Whittaker CALL TO ORDER Meeting called to order at 6:01 PM by Brian James (in the absence of an elected chairperson). INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS • Marc Thornton, Samuel Clemens High School History Club Sponsor and Janet Gensheimer, History Club Co-Sponsor introduced themselves and the students present also introduced themselves. DISCUSSION AND/OR ACTION ITEMS 1. Presentation by Samuel Clemens High School History Club – Landmark designation for Samuel Clemens High School. Melissa Scott, President of the History Club, presented the History Club’s research they’ve been working on for the past month. (See attached.) The research covers the first 10 years of history of Samuel Clemens High School and she read the document to the group. They used yearbooks, the school and city libraries, and the genealogy room to find as much information as possible. The first picture is an ariel shot taken in approximately 1971. The second picture is how the front of the school used to look and the third picture is how the front of the school looks now. The fourth picture is where the auditorium used to be and was demolished and made into an outdoor courtyard. The students had the opportunity to learn how to conduct research, to take notes, pull from sources, organize the sources, and look for the ones that were applicable to the focus that we had, and how to construct the paper in a way that commented on the sources in an appropriate manner. Chris Hormel noted that our bylaws state that: “A “Landmark Property” is defined as any property that presents itself as a unique feature of the City of Schertz or its Extra Territorial Jurisdiction (ETJ) landscape (community) due to either its nostalgic, aesthetic, architectural, or symbolic attributes and which could or will have an enduring impact on the community’s cultural identity.” He commented that the article touches on all of these attributes and that it meets all the qualifications. Miguel Vazquez noted that the article mentions the Schertz-Cibolo School; is that building still in existence? Marc Thornton responded that information came from the Samuel Clemens Page 2 of 9 history page from the high school and he tried to find who wrote it and tried to verify because he had never heard of a school being on Main Street itself. Brian James responded that he believes it is the Allison Steele School. Janet Gensheimer remarked that the kids really enjoyed the yearbooks to see some of those first years of yearbooks to see how much has changed over time, clubs, styles, faculty, etc. Miguel Vazquez asked how many seniors are in the History Club and they indicated there are at least 8. He would like to see the landmark designation completed by the time they graduate. Brian James outlined the next steps: 1. Submit the historical landmark application; 2. Request placed on the next SHPC agenda; 3. Committee votes to move forward; 4. Notify the property owner (Brian has already mentioned it to Dr. Ealy and he is aware); 5. The committee has 30 days to place on City Council agenda; 6. Once approved, the information for the plaque would be written and the plaque ordered. We would notify the History Club when it goes to City Council and they will be able to attend. The approval process can be accomplished before graduation; however, the plaque would not be completed before graduation. At this point in the meeting, Brian James was moving to the second agenda item. Miguel Vazquez asked if we could first hold elections for officers. Brian James responded that Election of Officers was not posted in the agenda because we had not received the resignation from Pete Perez, Vice Chairperson. Discussion ensued on the expectation of a resignation since it is not spelled out in the bylaws. Brian James commented that he appreciates the frustration, but the city did not know if Pete Perez had resigned from the board at the time of posting. Becki Babcock commented that we cannot take hearsay as a resignation. Staff noted the City did not receive Pete Perez’s resignation from the City Secretary until this morning. Election of Officers can take place at next month’s meeting. Staff will run today’s meeting because the bylaws do not make provision for how it’s done and in the past with other boards and commissions staff will help get through the agenda; however, perfectly fine if someone else would like to go through the agenda. Chris Hormel suggested that before we make changes to the bylaws, we review them. We haven’t done anything according to the bylaws. For example, elections were supposed to be held in January, nominations in October, ¾ vote on any amendments to the bylaws (not just a quorum). He would like to see us all read the bylaws, get well-versed, and then meet in the future about any changes to the bylaws. The number one thing in the bylaws is our purpose is to have a museum. Miguel Vazquez spoke with Judy Womack and she will not be continuing as an active member. Roz Wise has spoken with Tricia Whitman and she advised that can’t be here for most meetings and that her cousin is interested in taking her place. 2. Minutes – Consideration and/or action regarding the approval of the minutes of the regular meeting of February 23, 2023. a. Chris Hormel noted that Jill Whittaker and Robert Durham were not present. b. Miguel Vazquez motioned and Chris Hormel seconded to approve the minutes with corrections as noted. Motion passed unanimously. Page 3 of 9 3. Fund Expenditures – Consideration and/or action regarding the submission of member expense vouchers and approval of fund expenditures. a. No new fund expenditures. No action taken. b. Miguel Vazquez asked for the current balance to be presented at each meeting. NEW BUSINESS 4. Direction of SHPC Going Forward (Brian James) Part of what seems to be a struggle is the turnover of members and trying to find direction and move forward on items. That has gone on for a fair amount of time. Even when Dean Weirtz was here, Dean had a very clear focus that seemed to interest him quite a bit, such as publications. The last few meetings we’ve discussed what we’re about, what do we do, the car show, etc. At the time, the former chairperson, Frenchy Bourgeois and Pete Perez were in favor of that project and the remaining and new committee members may not share that passion. Again, we’ve gone to having subcommittee and it’s a good start, but the turnover hasn’t helped. The concern is how do we find stability. One thing that doesn’t seem to be helpful is the formality of being a city board or commission. For example, the need to post the meetings, when it gets posted, how it gets posted, the bylaws that seem to create challenges and issues at times, etc. What we tend to see is that when there is a role that the board or commission plays in terms of formal activity or approvals from the city, either outlined by the State of Texas or established by city ordinances, when we have finite narrow-focused things the boards tend to do better. Planning & Zoning, Board of Adjustment, Building & Standards all have a very defined focus. Even some of the boards that have struggled in the past at times have a less well-defined focus. Parks & Recreation and TSAC have both struggled. We’ve had to define those roles. The Library Board’s primary focus is operating the bookstore and their role is raising funds to put towards programming. The Historic Preservation Committee does not have a clearly defined mission by City code. The bylaws state three things, however, there’s been a struggle with that. Frustration at a prior meeting over the Starlight Theater and the demolition of the ticket booth and again, that was an enlightening conversation with some of the members because one of the things that this committee does not do, unlike San Antonio and other places, is we do not have regulations that restrict what you can do to a building. Any designation we give is an honorary designation to promote awareness. Staff feels that being an official city board or commission is not helpful to the Historic Preservation Committee’s operations. It seems to be more of a hindrance. The bylaws, posting, how we do it, members have to turn in a written resignation, apply through City Council. The recommendation is that rather than continue to be an official city board or commission operating under those constraints with those challenges, we’ve seen success in other areas when the board operates as a non-profit with support from the city. For example, BBYA that does our baseball, soccer, and football programs, is not a city board. Staff proposes that you move from an official city board or commission to a non-profit 501c3. This is about the committee having the flexibility to focus on what you want to do. The idea would be to dissolve the committee as a city board or commission, but again, move to a 501c3. Page 4 of 9 The drawback to moving to a 501c3 is whether there is an interest when it doesn’t come from the city to push forward. If there isn’t, is that indicative of part of the challenge? Chris Hormel commented that if it moves to a non-profit, it will be really difficult to keep the committee going. Brian James further explained that when you are an official city board or commission, you are appointed by City Council and regardless of the disconnects and challenges and disagreements and tones, people stay on city boards and commissions. As opposed to with non-profits, if we have somebody who is not helping move the cause in a forward direction, the group can decide that it isn’t healthy and the person can either make a change or be removed. Maybe this is the fundamental point and as hard as it is to deal with is that if there is not enough interest and support to do the things of a non-profit, then is that a time to stop and say there isn’t enough interest to do this stuff. We like the idea and concept of the historic committee and it’s hard to give it up, but is that maybe what the challenge is -- that folks are just busy with other stuff and don’t have the time to do the work. Miguel Vazquez commented that it’s just been the leadership. Chris Hormel commented that they’ve talked a lot about this in the last couple of weeks. There has been no outreach by the committee to get more people involved. We don’t show up to any of the city functions to get the word out. One of the things that this committee has done poorly is the committee is not selling ourselves to the citizens of the city to volunteer their time. Brian James advised we would take this proposal to City Council. Roz Wise commented that she doesn’t have any problem with how staff does things as far as the rules. She said that the issue is the committee – we haven’t gotten our act together. Without the city, they can’t do what they do and won’t be able to sustain the group. Chris Hormel commented that if City Council moves forward with dissolving, more than likely the committee will be done. Jill Whittaker commented that one of the reasons she wanted to be the liaison from City Council was that she felt this committee needed some presence. She has a passion for history and wanted to see what was going on with the committee. Her observation over the last year is that the meetings are very repetitious and look very similar every time you come; discussion of the same items and then we meet again the next quarter or next month and have the same discussion. From her perspective, it doesn’t seem like any action has happened in-between. Brian has tried hard for several meetings to encourage the committee to narrow their focus because people clearly do not have time for five different subcommittees and projects. If you as a committee can come up with a very narrow focus – a goal – you can go do that, come back to the meeting and vote on a couple of things and have some productivity. Miguel Vazquez again commented that it comes back to poor leadership. Chris Hormel commented that they were specifically told not allowed to meet or to talk to each other. Brian James commented that is one of the challenges with this board and commission. The way you all seem to want to operate and it makes perfect sense -- it’s a lot of communication between yourselves and it’s not running through the city and it’s not necessarily running through the Page 5 of 9 Chair. It’s sitting together for coffee brainstorming an idea. That is not the way city boards and commissions typically function. This committee functions differently because again, the way it started was staff really had a very limited role. It was run by the committee. We posted the meeting notice and provided funding. Dean Weirtz would send us the agenda and that’s what got posted. And the only reason that staff does the minutes and staff now keeps track of the funding was that a number of years ago we struggled to get committee members who wanted to step up and do those things and staff was happy to do that. If this is the way you want to operate, makes sense, but it’s not like a city board or commission operates. If you don’t want to create a 501c3 because of some of the challenges that come with that, you don’t necessarily have to create a 501c3, you can be an informal group. Ask yourselves what is the thing that you most would like this group (in whatever form) to accomplish. Chris Hormel replied that he got into it for landmarks. Many of us have talked about what we thought we were going to be doing is getting the word out to the public, looking at applications for landmarks, doing some history ourselves to make sure it meets the requirements, and that’s the one thing we struggled with the most is even talking about landmarks. Brian James then provided an example. So, the city can still continue to read proclamations recognizing historic landmark properties that are of importance to our community without this being a city board or commission. You can work on your own, meet on your own, and not even be a 501c3, just some point of contact for the city when there’s a building of historical significance. If that’s what you are interested in, again the irony of this tonight is that we sat here and said these kids are graduating in two months and it would’ve been nice for the board to make a recommendation but your hand strung because you didn’t have the application filled out from them so now we’re pushed back a meeting and now we’re scrambling to council as opposed to an informal thing – you can handle that yourselves. That is an example of where you can get together and work on those items. Chris Hormel then asked if both Councilwoman Whittaker and Brian James are of the same opinion that the committee should be dissolved. Councilwoman Whittaker responded that the value that a board or commission adds to the city and where there’s no regulatory power behind a board or commission, and then add a vagueness in goals. She thought the Historical Preservation Committee would be a committee that if I were a resident and I thought I had a historical building, I could go to you and ask if there’s funding to get a designation and possibly a tax break. She thought it would be a valuable resource to the community. What she struggles with this as continuing as a city board or commission is that there is taxpayer dollars that are funding it and she’s watched it for a year and we’ve contributed money and she personally can’t justify it. She would like to see it move to an interest group and get organized. We can dissolve a committee and add a committee. To her it just doesn’t seem right to continue it as it is. If it turned into an interest group that suddenly had this focus and value and we could see a way for the city to come back and bring it back in and it would add value both to the organization and to the city, she’s not opposed to that. She just thinks continuing to do the same thing over and over again month after month and struggling through. Miguel Vazquez again brought up leadership as the issue. Chris Hormel commented that a lot of them came on board and wanted to get their hands dirty and start doing this. Miguel Vazquez commented that we went astray with the car show. Brian James responded that the majority of the committee supported the idea of doing a car show. Again, this is a disconnect. Do we Page 6 of 9 like the car show, do we not like the car show? What he wanted to do was have this conversation here with everyone to hear what everyone has to say. He has not heard anything that leads him to believe that yes, this thing is going to flourish as a committee and while we haven’t settled on something different, we may need to just “sleep on it”. Miguel Vazquez again stressed that it’s the leadership that’s been the issue. Brian James responded that he doesn’t necessarily think it’s the leadership. As he stated, he thinks it’s a lack of a clear focus and mission, it’s different interests on the part of the committee members, etc. We’ve had multiple chairs of this committee that we’ve gone through – Dean, Elizabeth, Frenchy, and Pat. He’s seen us continue to struggle even with those folks. Interestingly enough, the idea that we don’t like the car show and don’t want to do the car show was a prior chair’s passion. Roz Wise remarked that a lot of us here have talked among ourselves and we know where we need to go to get re-root. The things we talk about feel like we’re all on the same path and just need to get started. She thinks they need to talk it out themselves about where they want to go, what they want to do because it takes a long time to talk about these things. Brian James responded that he would be blunt, but that is exactly his point. If you are a board or commission, you wouldn’t get together and talk this out outside of a meeting. We truly felt like there’s value that this committee could do, but it isn’t working as a city board or commission and whether it’s a 501c3 or an informal group with the city helping. Becki Babcock asked for clarification. We can take all of this back, sit down and formulate, get our lives together with a clear focus, and then later come back to the city once all of that is done. Brian James responded that what he’s hearing though is the feeling is that if the structure and formality of the city goes away the group dissipates and there isn’t the interest in it and it falls apart. To him is that if what is holding this together is the formality and the structure, then that is indicative of the problem, which is different than the leadership issues which we’ve had for as long as eight years ago. Chris Hormel commented that if it is dissolved, the likelihood of it coming back as a committee is very small. Brian James remarked that one of the challenges seems to be the lack of focus and lack of clarity. Chris Hormel remarked that without the structure he’s not sure if he’s willing to go through all the pain of doing all the other stuff and realistically probably not. He said this has been the most unproductive, frustrating experience in 20 years. We sit here and talk about the same stuff and vote on having subcommittees. Then we’re told we can’t meet as a subcommittee. He understands where the city is coming from. Roz Wise suggested that the city gives them another year to see what they can do. Jill Whittaker commented that she will be super direct and maybe painful – she’s watched this group of people for the last year and every person has a very different interest and passion and she doesn’t think any amount of discussion between this group plus one is going to get you anywhere. It’s just that each person has very different ideas and passions and a passion – when you have one – it’s really hard to let go. So when it’s a very small group, it’s a lot of work to do any one of the things that we have talked about: redoing the books, which is already in existence and needs to be updated and revised, but if the five of you just did the book that is just one project and she would be very impressed if you could accomplish that in this year – one Page 7 of 9 project. But that is not everybody’s passion. If you wanted to do the car show, that’s too much. If you want to talk about landmark designations, if you did that for one year and could all agree that’s the one project that you do for this year, maybe. She has watched each one of you over the last year discuss things that you are interested in, so unless the five of you compromise and determine that your thing is not going to happen this year and agree to do one thing, she just didn’t think another year will make a difference. Roz Wise responded that we just don’t have faith in the group. Brian James remarked that it’s not that we don’t have faith. Miguel Vazquez then announced that the car show has been cancelled. Brian James responded that we didn’t know that and all the more reason you don’t need to be a city board or commission. If your passion is landmark designations, you can get together and do that. If your passion is let’s all get together and have a coffee or a beer, talk about what we want to do and figure it out, we can change course and shift and adjust – he doesn’t think you need the formality of the board or commission to do that. It is more of an obstacle for you. Miguel Vazquez commented that from the city’s standpoint, the city won’t have any kind of historical bent to it. So, if someone wants to ask about history and who can I talk to, will it be the Chamber of Commerce as the mouthpiece for the city? Brian James responded that he’s not sure who it will be – who is it now? Miguel Vazquez responded, theoretically, it should be them. Jill Whittaker commented that is the point – we’ve not been able to achieve that. She commented that this committee has generated so much passion and excitement talking about it amongst yourselves and she appreciates all the time that you’ve put into volunteering because it is absolutely volunteer, but she just sees that individual personalities matter and if the leadership is not great, it does make an organization struggle. But a lot of times you can have weak leadership, but if the foundation of the group was moving the right direction, you can make it happen even if the leader was steering in the wrong direction. All of the entities within the group, the people and the leadership, nobody is on the same page and again, it goes back to the passion. What is your idea of what the organization wants to do, what is the most important thing. Miguel Vazquez commented that theoretically we have the framework for that which are the bylaws and they specifically state three things that this committee is supposed to be doing. Jill Whittaker responded that Brian James has brought that up for at least the last six months at every meeting – okay guys, I would suggest that you narrow the focus and he repeated that at least two meetings in a row and it still didn’t get narrowed down. One very specific moment – we talked about the bylaws and going in too many directions. The first thing on the agenda was something in the bylaws about a museum. You as a committee voted unanimously to remove the museum from the bylaws and after that vote was made, the very next comment was, let’s talk about the museum. It can’t work that way. If you remove something from the bylaws and you are determined to be a focused organization, you cannot then talk about something you have just removed. It just really seems like there’s different passions. Miguel Vazquez responded that was him. He wanted to see it removed as a goal, but still wants to talk about it in the background wherever it comes up. Roz Wise commented that she’s been on the committee since 2016 or 2017 and Dean Weirtz would bring it up and it always got shot down because the city is not going to pay for a museum, there’s no building for a museum, that’s why he puts the items in the Guadalupe County center because we can’t get a museum. Chris Hormel commented that we’ve heard the presentation and he respects whatever is voted for. He understands that from his five months being on the committee the frustration. We Page 8 of 9 could argue here all night long, but the staff has a history with the committee. He thinks that has more weight than whatever words could be said tonight. So, he feels we are going in circles. Miguel Vazquez commented that we have three goals for the committee. One is the museum, two is to obtain grant money from the state and federal governments which has never been brought up, and the third is designating landmarks. So, we’re touching base on one out of three goals. Chris Hormel also noted that later in the bylaws it mentions attending all the city meetings so that we can get the word out by the committee. Brian James again said that as he understood it, the logic that was given to him was it was a way that the Historical Preservation Committee had a very visible activity that folks would go to and learn that there was a Historical Preservation Committee. But he thinks, fair enough, after talking to several folks, what is the connection and what are we saying when we have people’s attention. Where is the focus on that? Again, that’s where the committee may have struggled is we have this historic committee but again, what do we want to be doing. Miguel Vazquez commented that’s we started veering off-course. Brian James again reiterated that the majority of the committee members, twice, wanted to do a car show. He’s not sure what to tell you if we’re so locked into the bylaws, but yet much of what we talk about here are these interesting things but not directly tied to the bylaws. Roz Wise commented that Dean did the best with that – putting out there who we are, got the historic places, and did a fabulous job. Brian James commented that if you remember, Dean would get frustrated at times that he could not get support and engagement from enough folks. Dean’s passion was writing about history, but when Dean left, we didn’t write new things. We had numerous conversations about how we needed material to be written by the committee members for the publications, for the magazine, newsletter, etc. and we haven’t done any. Everybody on the committee was keenly aware that this is one thing that’s done and something we need and it’s perfectly okay for the members to agree to do a little research but not sit and write a two-age article. Brian James agreed that he will sleep on this and talk to the city manager and let you know when we’re going to take it to Council so you can attend. Miguel Vazquez asked if they will have a chance to talk amongst themselves and come back next month. Brian James responded that he’s not clear what you want – do you want to go back as a Schertz Historical Preservation Committee and outside of a committee meeting all of the members are going to get together not at a committee meeting and have this conversation about what we want to do and whether we like the idea that staff is proposing a system whereby you could all get together as committee members and meet when you want without us there to talk about what you want to do. Roz Wise asked if they could bring it to staff at the next meeting. Brian James again reiterated that you are going to get together as a whole committee, not in a committee meeting, informally, to talk about stuff you want to do and one of those things is why you don’t like the idea of that staff is putting forth of you meeting informally to talk about the stuff you want to do. Again, the suggestion has been to not do it at a meeting. You don’t want to meet at a meeting to do this, you want to get together yourselves. If you do that, that will be his strongest point as to why you don’t need to be a city board or commission because you would rather meet to discuss things outside the context of the meeting. Jill Whittaker commented that what she thinks Brian James is saying is that you can be more productive if we are completely unproductive here and we haven’t come to a resolution here in the last hour and a half. We’ve been discussing for about 45 minutes after Brian James concluded the presentation and your answer still after 45 minutes is to go out and discuss it Page 9 of 9 again and she thinks Brian is saying if what you need to be is on your own to discuss this to be more productive, maybe that’s a better format for your group in general is to just meet. Becki Babcock remarked that we are completely proving his point by doing this. Miguel Vazquez asked if they would be breaking the Open Meetings Act and Brian James responded, no. Roz Wise suggested that so as not take staff’s time because this is something they need to decide on what they want to do and how they want to do it and if they have another meeting then that’s taking staff’s time. Brian James appreciates that, but that is part of the problem we have at these meetings. They go round and round, we repeat the same topics over and over and we’re not on the same page and what we’re saying is maybe you would be more productive. It’s not clear to him why they couldn’t schedule some times to meet over at one of the study rooms at the library or the community room and go over and work on the book, it that’s what you want to do, and edit it. Whoever can show up can show up for it as long as you have a couple people, you have the ability to do that and move through the editing of the book. If you are not going to meet in the format of a posted meeting, then you don’t need to be a city board or commission. Chris Hormel commented that we haven’t moved the marker any further, and honestly, we are an extension of City Council and whatever they want to do. Just let them know. He doesn’t have a desire to dissolve this committee. He thinks we have some work to do and if they are allowed to do it, we’ll do it. Jill Whittaker commented that she sits on the board for the Boards and Commissions and she interviewed several of you and we don’t have very clear criteria, so if you have interest and it’s a volunteer position, we’re going to say yes. And our job is to fill those empty seats and her conscious would have a problem with putting a new person into this because they would be looking to you for guidance and there is no guidance to be had. It’s a tricky place because you’re down to five people, but why would we put more people into a group that is struggling. ADJOURNMENT At this point in the meeting, rather than continue with the remaining agenda items, Becki Babcock motioned and Roz Wise seconded to adjourn the meeting at 7:36 PM. Motion passed with three yay and one nay. Miguel Vazquez asked what the steps are for next month. Brian James replied that he will let the committee know when he is going to Council and that did not necessarily get clear consensus or overwhelming sense that the committee wanted the city to disband the committee as a city board or commission and that there was concern that if we went to some other format without the formal structure and staff support that the group would likely dissipate and not be productive. Miguel Vazquez asked if City Council was asking about this committee and Jill Whittaker replied, yes. Brian James commented that they see the resignations.