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02-05-2021 Agenda Council Retreat with Backup       MEETING AGENDA City Council CITY COUNCIL WORKSHOP RETREAT February 5, 2021                                   *EVO ENTERTAINMENT CENTER* SMALL BOARD ROOM 18658 I-35 SCHERTZ TEXAS 78154 CITY OF SCHERTZ CORE VALUES Do the right thing Do the best you can Treat others the way you want to be treated Work cooperatively as a team    SPECIAL AGENDA FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 2021 at 8:30 a.m.        Call to Order (General Comments)   DISCUSSION AND ACTION  Discussion and Team Building Retreat with the theme "Building the Complete City" with presentations and discussion on major projects by City Staff. (M. Browne) 1. Discussion regarding staff compensation. (Mayor Gutierrez/M. Browne/C. Kelm) 2. Presentation on citizen engagement. (M. Browne/L. Denton)3.   ADJOURNMENT     CERTIFICATION I, BRENDA DENNIS, CITY SECRETARY OF THE CITY OF SCHERTZ, TEXAS, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE ABOVE AGENDA WAS PREPARED AND POSTED ON THE OFFICIAL BULLETIN BOARDS ON THIS THE 29th DAY OF JANUARY 2021 AT 4:00 P.M., WHICH IS A PLACE READILY ACCESSIBLE TO THE PUBLIC AT ALL TIMES AND THAT SAID NOTICE WAS POSTED IN THE PUBLIC AT ALL TIMES AND THAT SAID NOTICE WAS POSTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH CHAPTER 551, TEXAS GOVERNMENT CODE. I CERTIFY THAT THE ATTACHED NOTICE AND AGENDA OF ITEMS TO BE CONSIDERED BY THE CITY COUNCIL WAS REMOVED BY ME FROM THE OFFICIAL BULLETIN BOARD ON _____DAY OF _______________, 2021. TITLE: ______________ This facility is accessible in accordance with the Americans with Disabilities Act. Handicapped parking spaces are available. If you require special assistance or have a request for sign interpretative services or other services, please call 210-619-1030. The City Council for the City of Schertz reserves the right to adjourn into closed session at any time during the course of this meeting to discuss any of the matters listed above, as authorized by the Texas Open Meetings Act.      Closed Sessions Authorized: This agenda has been reviewed and approved by the City’s legal counsel and the presence of any subject in any Closed Session portion of the agenda constitutes a written interpretation of Texas Government Code Chapter 551 by legal counsel for the governmental body and constitutes an opinion by the attorney that the items discussed therein may be legally discussed in the closed portion of the meeting considering available opinions of a court of record and opinions of the Texas Attorney General known to the attorney. This provision has been added to this agenda with the intent to meet all elements necessary to satisfy Texas Government Code Chapter 551.144(c) and the meeting is conducted by all participants in reliance on this opinion. City Council Workshop Retreat February 5, 2021 Retreat Overview ▪Welcome/Breakfast ▪Teambuilding Activity ▪The Complete City Discussion ▪Staff Compensation ▪Lunch ▪City Staff Presentations ▪Citizen Engagement 2 Welcome/Breakfast ▪Introductions ▪Icebreaker Question: “What is something we may not know about you?” 3 Teambuilding Activity ▪Bowling 4 The Complete City Discussion ▪Core Services (what we must provide to be a city) ▪Quality of Life (what we want to provide to be a desirable city) ▪Economic Engine (what drives our ability to provide adequately for each) 5 The Complete City Discussion ▪We have competing demands and scarce resources. Are we appropriately balancing these resources to meet the three areas? ▪Are we successfully creating the complete city as envisioned in the strategic plan? 6 The Complete City Discussion ▪Resiliency and Adaptability lead to Sustainability ▪“Sustaining such prosperity requires that regional decision -makers undertake coordinated planning efforts that emphasize resilient and adaptable policies and infrastructure”. 7 The Complete City Discussion ▪Resiliency -“the ability to prepare and plan for, absorb, recover from and more successfully adapt to adverse events.” ▪We often think about resiliency in terms of natural disasters. 8 The Complete City Discussion 9 The Complete City Discussion ▪Adaptability involves longer term, flexible planning 10 The Complete City Discussion ▪Changing economy ▪Richardson, Tx –Telecom bust in 2001 ▪Richardson’s office vacancy rate, which was 9.5 percent in the first quarter of 2001, climbed to 25.9 percent by the fourth quarter of 2003. Telecom Corridor in lost as many as 30,000 jobs tied to the industry. 11 The Complete City Discussion ▪Decline of brick and mortar retail 12 The Complete City Discussion ▪Thoughts on sustainability –ability to support "it" in the future ▪Are we relying too much on something that will not always be here –permit revenue, growth , or one demographic or not thinking about what will be here? 13 The Complete City Discussion 14 ◼In smart cities of the future, social resilience will be a key ingredient for building stronger communities and for addressing aging-in-place issues. In 2013, a research report published by the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta concluded that cities with a high degree of social resilience tend to enjoy numerous health and economic benefits. Put simply, it is not only the right thing to do; it is also not feasible to continue isolating adults based on their age as seniors become a greater share of the populace. The Complete City Discussion ▪Seeking clarity and alignment ▪Short-term and long -term goals 15 Staff Compensation Discussion ▪Review and discuss minimum pay for full-time employees 16 Hourly Employee Personnel 16 16 233 265 Hourly employees Less Than $14 Less Than $15 Greater than $15 •32/265 hourly employees are making less than $15/hour (~12%) •16/265 hourly employees are making less than $14/hour (~6%) •To bring all employees < up to $15 = ~$75K →~$93K weighted •To bring all employees < up $1 or max $15 = ~44.5K → ~$55K weighted •To bring all employees < up $2 or max $15 = ~$68.4K → ~$84.5K weighted 3 4 4 52 21 1 2 1 1 6 Hourly Employee Breakdown Animal Services - 3 Drainage Worker I - 4 Park Maintenance Technician - 4 Street Worker I - 5 Police Records Specialist - 2 Utility Billing Clerk - 2 Customer Relations Representative - 1 Events Attendant - 1 Library Clek II - 2 Library Assistant - 1 Street Worker II - 1 Service Worker I - 6 •Lowest Employee = $11.77/hr or $24,482/yr •4% merit = $979 •3x lowest employee merit = $2,937 •# employees who earned > $2,937 for 2019 merit = 19 Examples of Take-Home Pay Person A Hourly = $13.14 Gross Pay = $1,164.14 Taxes = $189.30 Total Deductions = $111.52 ($81.49 TMRS) Take Home Pay = $863.32 Elected optional life insurance and contributes to FSA. Person B Hourly = $13.14 Gross Pay = $1,052.19 Taxes = $69.92 Total Deductions = $544.78 ($73.65 TMRS) Take Home Pay = $437.49 Carries medical (base PPO) & base dental for children. Participates in optional retirement (ICMA) Has elected to take Critical Illness & Short-term disability coverage, contributes to an FSA (flexible spending account), and has voluntary life insurance. Has mandatory Child Support Order. Single Street Worker Take Home – Minimum starting salary with no deductions Hourly = $13.14 Gross Pay = $1,051.20 Taxes (estimated) = 115.00 Total Deductions (TMRS only) = $73.58 Take Home Pay = $862.62 Lunch Break 20 City Staff Presentations ▪Core Services ▪Planning & Community Development ▪Public Works (Drainage, Sidewalks, Facilities) ▪Engineering ▪Quality of Life ▪Parks ▪Economic Engine ▪EDC 21 City Staff Presentations ▪HR ▪Staffing Levels/Vacancies dashboard ▪Class & Comp ▪Finance ▪Bond Issuance ▪I&S Rate Discussion 22 Planning & Community Development ▪Key Projects Accomplished FY 19/20 ▪Shift to online application submittal and inspection requests ▪Permit Information Sheets ▪Fee Calculator ▪Virtual Inspections ▪Delayed Annexation Service Agreements 23 Planning & Community Development ▪Key Projects Planned FY 20/21 ▪Residential Master Plan Process ▪Building Code Update ▪Cityview Go Live ▪UDC Update –quick victories and overhaul ▪Comprehensive Plan Update ▪Office Space/Counter remodel 24 Planning & Community Development ▪Look Ahead: 1-3 years ▪Annexations ▪Comprehensive Plan and UDC adjustments ▪Inspector Certifications 25 Planning & Community Development ▪Improvement –Virtual Inspections & Permit fee estimator 26 Public Works ▪Key Projects Accomplished FY 19/20 27 Sidewalks 28 Main Street 29 Westchester to Curtiss 30 Sidewalks: Looking Ahead Project name Cost Notes FY 20-21 YMCA drive approach, general repairs 15,000.00$ Aero Ave. from SP to Colony Dr. (bridge)45,000.00$ This will connect SP to Colony Dr. Northcliffe 25,000.00$ Spot Repairs-cracks, uneven, trip hazards Curtiss Ave from FM 1518 to Westchester 315,039.00$ Connect the Village with YMCA, Samuel Clemens, Curtiss, and Elbel (Sidwalk/ADA Inspection) FY 21-22 Aero Ave. from Colony Dr. to Randolph Ave.45,000.00$ This will connect from SP to Randolph Ave. 4 ADA Ramps at Randoph Ave. & Exchange 9,600.00$ Connect SHA with Curtiss Pfeil Rd. between Exchange and Curtiss 32,216.00$ Connect SHA with Curtiss FY 23-24 Savannah Dr. from SP to Inglewood Dr.75,000.00$ Replace sidewalk with 6' ADA sidewalk to connect SP with Laura Ingalls school, accommodate student volume City wide repairs 10,000.00$ Spot Repairs-cracks, uneven, trip hazards FY 22-23 Aero Ave. from Randolph Ave to Beacon 85,000.00$ This will connect SP to Beacon FY 24-25 Aero Ave. from Beacon to Oak St.85,000.00$ This will connect SP to Oak St. FY 25-26 Aero Ave from Oak St. to FM 1518 85,000.00$ This will Connect SP to FM 1518 - This final connection will connect from FM 1518 to FM 3009 This will connect Schools, Churches, Businesses, City officies, Library, YMCA, Grocery Stores and Parks. Sidewalk CIP 31 Drainage 32 Drainage CIP Project Phase FY 19-20 516,849.00$ Colony Drive Drainage Channel Design and Construction 65,000.00$ Osage Avenue-Greenshire Design and Construction 130,693.00$ Schwab Road (Rip Rap)Design and Construction 15,000.00$ Castle Hills Design and Construction 182,732.00$ Schaefer Road Construction 10,624.00$ Fire Station #2 Design 29,060.00$ Doerr Lane Construction 40,000.00$ Savannah holding Pond, Westchester, Arroyo Verde Design 43,740.00$ Phase 20-21 2,017,000.00$ Savannah holding Pond, Westchester, Arroyo Verde Design and Construction 957,000.00$ Fire Station #2 Design and Construction 660,000.00$ Amazon Design and Construction 400,000.00$ Phase 21-22 100,000.00$ Aviation Drainage Design 100,000.00$ Phase 22-23 650,000.00$ FM 78 Selys Design and Construction 650,000.00$ Phase 23-24 550,000.00$ Whisper Branch/Whisper Trace Design and Construction 550,000.00$ Phase 24-25 500,000.00$ Buffalo Desilting and Rip Rap Design and Construction 500,000.00$ Phase 25-26 800,000.00$ Lone Oak Design and Construction 800,000.00$ Phase 26-27 700,000.00$ Kramer Farms Design and Construction 700,000.00$ Phase 27-28 750,000.00$ Woodland Oaks Design and Construction 750,000.00$ Phase 28-29 Live Oak Rd and Schertz Pkwy Fema Channel Design and Construction 2,050,000.00$ 33 Facilities 35 Future Renovation 36 Facilities: Looking Ahead 1-3 Years 37 ▪Building 10 Renovation –Parks ▪Building 1 City Hall -Counter Renovation ▪Community Center Renovation ▪Flooring Projects –Fire Station 1; Civic Center (main) ▪Building 2 Administration -ADA Renovation ▪HVAC Replacement –Building 1,6,7,8 ▪Fire Station #4 ▪Public Safety Building East Live Oak Pump Additions 38 Water Plans: FY 19 -21 Project Phase FY 19-20 21,102,135.00$ WW Woman Hollering Creek WW Trunk Main Bid and Construction 12,044,000.00$ Corbett Elevated Storage Tank Construction 2,700,000.00$ Water Master Plan Study 500,000.00$ Waste Water Master Plan Study E. Live Oak Pump Additions Bid and Construction 1,566,000.00$ Waterford Lift Station Removal Design and Bid 350,000.00$ Aviation Heights Phase 5 Waterline Replacements/SPAM Review design, bid 37,712.00$ Aviation Heights Phase 6 Waterline Replacements/SPAM Design and bid 37,712.00$ Aviation Heights Phase 7 Waterline Replacements/SPAM Design and bid 37,711.00$ E Live Oak to IH 35 (16")Route Study + project 2,500,000.00$ FM 1103 Utility Relocations Construction 1,200,000.00$ WW IH-35 Utility Relocations (Riata LS)Design and ROW 129,000.00$ Risk and Resilience 34,400.00$ Phase FY 20-21 6,290,098.35$ Ware-Seguin to Lower Seguin Loop Line Design, ROW, Construction 1,255,000.00$ Greytown to Pfeil Loop line Design and ROW 156,200.00$ Waterford Lift Station Removal Construction 57,000.00$ Crest Oak sewer line upsize Design 100,000.00$ Corridor Oaks Design and Construction 105,000.00$ Emergency Connect 500,000.00$ Tank Painting Construction 350,000.00$ Corbett Ground Storage Tank Design and Bid 300,000.00$ Aviation Heights Phase 5 Waterline Replacements/SPAM Construction 465,000.00$ Aviation Heights Phase 6 Waterline Replacements/SPAM Construction 465,000.00$ Aviation Heights Phase 7 Waterline Replacements/SPAM Construction 470,000.00$ WW IH-35 Utility relocations (Riata LS)Construction 1,400,926.35$ FM 1518 Utility Relocations Design 565,972.00$ Fairways at Scenic Hills AC pipes/SPAM Design and Bid 100,000.00$ 39 Water Plans: Looking Ahead Phase 21-22 10,313,144.20$ FM 1518 Utility Relocations Construction 2,000,000.00$ FM 2252 Utility Relocations Design and Construction 100,000.00$ Lookout sewer line upsize Design Crest Oak sewer line upsize Construction Greytown to Pfeil Loop line Construction 940,000.00$ Northcliffe Country Club Estates AC pipes/SPAM Construction 2,000,000.00$ Aviation Heights Phase 8 Waterline Replacements/SPAM Design and Construction 423,144.20$ Greenshire Drive Design and Construction Tank Painting 350,000.00$ Corbett Ground Storage Tank Construction 4,500,000.00$ Phase 22-23 4,000,000.00$ Cibolo Creek Crossing waterline replacement Design and Construction 300,000.00$ WW Cibolo West WW trunk main Route Study 100,000.00$ WW Town Creek Phase IV Trunk Main Route Study 100,000.00$ WW Bell North Sewer Design and Construction WW Lookout Road Sewer Replacement Waiting on development 3,500,000.00$ Phase 23-24 WW Cibolo West WW trunk main Easements WW Town Creek Phase IV Trunk Main Easements Phase 24-25 WW Cibolo West WW trunk main Construction WW Town Creek Phase IV Trunk Main Construction 3009 16" Transmission line Design Phase 25-26 Scenic Hills Subdivision Replacement Pipes Design 3009 16" Transmission line Construction Unfunded 40 Public Works 41 ▪Looking Ahead 1-3 Years ▪16” (Hooks) Waterline & Ware Seguin Loop Line Engineering ▪Key Projects Accomplished FY 19/20 42 ▪First Round of SPAM Projects ▪Easement Acquisition for Woman Hollering Creek Wastewater Project ▪Corbett Elevated Storage Tank and Distribution Mains Engineering ▪Key Projects Accomplished FY 19/20 ▪Capital Improvements Projects Web Site 43 Engineering ▪Key Projects Underway or Planned FY 20/21 ▪Water and Wastewater ▪Woman Hollering Creek Wastewater Main and Lift Station ▪16" Transmission Main Route Study and Preliminary Design ▪Riata Lift Station Relocation ▪Crest Oak Wastewater Line Upsize ▪Ware Seguin to Lower Seguin Loop Lines ▪Aviation Heights Water Main Replacements (phases pending funding) ▪FM 1518 Utility Relocation Design ▪Corbett Ground Storage Tank 44 Engineering ▪Key Projects Underway or Planned FY 20/21 Streets ▪Remediation to Schertz Parkway and Residential Chip Seal ▪Elbel Road and Drainage Improvements Design ▪Cibolo Valley Drive Expansion (collaboration with Cibolo and Developer) ▪Tri County Parkway Reconstruction (Corridor Parkway to FM 3009) ▪Next Round of SPAM Projects (see next slide) ▪Elbel Road and Drainage Improvements Construction (pending funding) 45 Engineering ▪Next Round of SPAM ▪Cherry Tree Drive nearly done ▪Aviation and Lindbergh on hold due to drainage discussion ▪Elbel Road Construction possibly accelerated (pending funding availability) 46 Engineering ▪Key Projects Underway or Planned FY 20/21 ▪Studies and Support ▪Water-Wastewater Master Plan and Impact Fee Update Study ▪Pedestrian Trails and Bike Lanes Project (Parks) ▪PCI Study Update ▪2020 Drainage Projects -Fire Station #2, Sycamore Creek Channel, Savannah Square Detention, East Dietz Creek at Arroyo Verde, etc. (Public Works –Drainage) ▪MS4 Permit Implementation –City Facilities Control Inventory and Operations Assessment ▪FM 3009 –FM 78 Intersection Improvement (TxDOT Planning Study) 47 Engineering ▪Key Projects Underway or Planned FY 20/21 ▪We Moved to 11 Commercial Place! 48 Thanks to: •Facilities •IT •Purchasing •Building Inspections •Streets •Parks •PD •Engineering Staff •Management and Council Engineering 49 ▪Look Ahead: 1-3 years ▪WATER AND WASTEWATER: Continue Execution of Water and Wastewater 5-Year CIP ▪Graytown to Pfeil Loop Line ▪FM 2252 Utility Relocations ▪Lookout Road Sewer Line Upsize ▪Aviation Heights Water Main Replacements (Future Phases) ▪Cibolo West Wastewater Trunk Main to South CCMA Plant Engineering ▪Look Ahead: 1-3 years ▪STREETS:Continue with SPAM 5-Year Plan 50 Engineering 51 ▪Look Ahead: 1-3 years ▪STUDIES AND SUPPORT: ▪Continue to manage design and construction of Drainage Maintenance Projects requiring design ▪Roadway Impact Fee Update Study (due FY 22/23) ▪Continue Implementation of MS4 Permit Requirements Parks ▪Key Projects Accomplished FY 20/21 or Late 19/20 ▪Heritage Oaks Park playscape and trail ▪Shade structures at Johnie McDow Sports Complex ▪Senior Center Parking Lot ▪Veteran's Memorial Plaza paver replacements ▪Implementation of CivicREC software ▪Shift to virtual events 52 Parks 53 Parks ▪Key Projects Planned FY 20/21 ▪Schertz Pedestrian Routes and Bike Lanes Construction ▪Great Northern Trail Segment Design and Construction ▪Veterans' Memorial Plaza landscape renovation ▪Crescent Bend Entry Improvements ▪Pickrell Pool Deck ▪Thulemeyer Parking Lot ▪Trail of Lights ▪Volunteer Schertz Program 54 Parks 55 Parks ▪Look Ahead: 1-3 years ▪Hilltop & Homestead Park Design and Construction ▪Hallie's Cove Park Design ▪Parklands Park Acceptance and Construction ▪Graytown Valley Park Acceptance and Design ▪Trail Construction ($150,000 annual budget) ▪Community Circle Park Master Plan Begin Implementation 56 Parks 57 Parks ▪Improvement –Year calendar of work program tied to projects 58 SEDC 2019 -2020 Accomplishments •Recruitment •Kellum/Nexus/Four Oaks •Pivot to digital marketing •Implementation of CRM •Retention •COVID -19 Response •Outreach –over 100 direct calls •Assessment •Response •Food Related •Infrastructure •Completed payment on Schertz 312 Phase I SEDC 2021 Key Projects •Recruitment •Incentive Policy/Practices •Return to traditional event - based prospect generation •Retention •Top 20 employers •Workforce development incentives/programs •Market Driven Infrastructure •$3.5 M Lookout Rd •David Lack Blvd •Mixed-Use Retail SEDC Looking Ahead •Policy •Establish quantitative evaluations and joint process to adapt: •Incentive Policy •Reserve Fund Projects •Resilient, Adaptable, Sustainable •Partners •State of Texas/Regional Partners •Developers/Brokers/Site Selectors •Programs •Targeted Recruitment •Retention/Expansion •Infrastructure Development Improvement: HR Dashboard 63 Vacancy Report Insurance Claims Personnel Strength: 366 Vacancy: 64 Effective Personnel Strength: 269 FMLA & WC Claims Personnel Update ▪New positions in 20/21, 12 added: ▪FY 19-20 (June 2020) –Added 8 positions ▪Patrol Officer ▪Assistant Director of Public Works ▪Engineer ▪Street Worker I (2) ▪FY 20-21 (October 2020) –Added 4 positions ▪Police Captain ▪Emergency Management Coordinator ▪Projected 4-6 positions in 2022 ▪Projected 4 positions in 2023 64 ▪Street Worker II (1) ▪Park Maintenance Technician ▪Kennel Techs (2) ▪School Resource Officer (SRO) ▪Senior Planner ▪Fire Fighters (4) ▪2nd half of FY 21 –Future Staffing Discussion / Prioritization ▪4 General Fund / 2 Water Class & Comp Update 65 YR 0/1 Adjustments –July 2020 YR 2 Adjustments –October 2021 Finance ▪Future Bond Issuance ▪FM 1518 (already approved and committed) ▪Fire Station 4 ▪Public Safety Building ▪Projects from CIP lists ▪Timing ▪Ability to complete Public Safety Items and some CIP ▪Reduce the I&S Rate 66 Old Plan $0.00 $5.00 $10.00 $15.00 $20.00 $25.00 FY 2 0 2 0 - 2 1 FY 2 0 2 1 - 2 2 FY 2 0 2 2 - 2 3 FY 2 0 2 3 - 2 4 FY 2 0 2 4 - 2 5 FY 2 0 2 5 - 2 6 FY 2 0 2 6 - 2 7 FY 2 0 2 7 - 2 8 FY 2 0 2 8 - 2 9 FY 2 0 2 9 - 3 0 Mi l l i o n s Debt Issuances FM 1518 FS4 Public Safety Infrastructure 67 New Plan (lowers I&S) 0.347 0.3545 0.3545 0.3545 0.3645 0.3645 0.3645 0.3645 0.3745 0.3745 0.1651 0.1576 0.1576 0.1576 0.1476 0.1476 0.1476 0.1476 0.1376 0.1376 0 0.05 0.1 0.15 0.2 0.25 0.3 0.35 0.4 $0 $5 $10 $15 $20 $25 FY 2 0 2 0 - 2 1 FY 2 0 2 1 - 2 2 FY 2 0 2 2 - 2 3 FY 2 0 2 3 - 2 4 FY 2 0 2 4 - 2 5 FY 2 0 2 5 - 2 6 FY 2 0 2 6 - 2 7 FY 2 0 2 7 - 2 8 FY 2 0 2 8 - 2 9 FY 2 0 2 9 - 3 0 Mi l l i o n s Debt Issuances FM 1518 FS4 Public Safety Infrastructure M&O I&S 68 Tax Rate Fire Station #4 ▪Industrial Area ▪Benefits our ISO Rating, Insurance, Response Times ▪Projected Completion date CY 2024 ▪Estimated cost $15M 69 Public Safety Bldg ▪Public Safety Building Phase 1 ▪Provides new Building ▪~60K sqft ▪Projected completion (if approved) 2028 ▪Minor renovations for Building 6 (paint, flooring, etc.) ▪Estimated Cost -$35M ▪Public Safety Building Phase 2 (not planned in next 10 years) ▪Adds on to existing new Building ▪~30K sqft ▪Completes renovations for Building 6 (space reconfiguration) ▪Estimated Cost -$25M 70 CIP Funding 71 $0 $2,000,000 $4,000,000 $6,000,000 $8,000,000 $10,000,000 $12,000,000 2021-22 2022-23 2023-24 2024-25 2025-26 2026-27 2027-28 2028-29 2029-30 CIP Funds through M&O Shift and Bond Funding CIP Fund Debt Issuance*plus impact fees and drainage fund Citizen Engagement ▪Presentation by Lowell Denton, Denton Navarro Rocha Bernal & Zech 72 Discussion 73