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09-08-1992PLANNING AND ZONING MINUTES The Schertz Planning and Zoning Commission convened in a regular session on Tuesday, September 8, 1992 at 7:00 P.M. in the Municipal Complex Conference Room, 1400 Schertz Parkway. Those present were as follows: PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION BOB ANDREWS, CHAIRMAN MERWIN WILLMAN GEORGE VICK LEONARD ZYCH KEN GREENWALD, COUNCILMAN MEMBERS ABSENT KEITH VAN DINE, SECRETARY BOBBIE VONADA #1 CALL TO ORDER CITY STAFF STEVE SIMONSON, ASST. CITY MANAGER NORMA ALTHOUSE, RECORDING SECRETARY Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:00 P.M. #2 APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Regular Session August 25, 1992 Leonard Zych stated that he knew he did a lot of talking the last time and will try not to this time, but he thinks there are some things in the minutes he believes to be a stretch of the imagination. On Page 1, second paragraph under Item #4, it says "Mr. Simonson indicated that all reports that came in from the various departments had been turned over to Leonard Zych who is working on the Plan." Mr. Zych commented he will agree that after Mr. Simonson's letter, which he has never seen, he did get to review the water department report and the library input, but he was not given a copy of those things. Mr. Zych then listed off those documents of which he had received copies: (1) Preliminary package Census data for Schertz 1980 and 1990 followed by 1990 population statistics; (2) consumer price index; (3) updated data on population; (4) December 3, 1991 EDTF report; (5) 1992 travel data expenses followed by some maps followed by some 1990 Census figures. and all the responses to the letter. Chairman Andrews reminded Mr. Zych he needed to get back to the correction of the minutes. Mr. Zych requested that on page 1, in the second paragraph under Item #4, the word "all" be changed to "some." Mr. Zych then asked Steve Simonson if that's fair and Mr. Simonson replied he has no problem with that. Leonard Zych stated he had further comments on the minutes. On page 3, paragraph 3, Chairman Andrews refers to a letter he thought had been drafted and signed by all the Commissioners and sent to City Council saying they needed a commitment to get this Comprehensive Plan underway and completed. Mr. Zych said if there is such a letter, he would like to have a copy. Chairman Andrews told Mr. Zych he would see that he gets a copy of the letter. Leonard Zych then referred to page 4, the first paragraph, where Merwin Willman commented he, personally, didn't think the Commission had really asked the Council for their commitment to the Comprehensive Plan. Mr. Zych said if Chairman Andrews is correct about everyone signing a letter of commitment-, then he doesn't understand Merwin Willman's remarks. If, however,_ a letter was not signed, then Mr. Willman's correct. Continuing down on page 4, Mr. Zych referred to paragraph 12 where Merwin Willman mentioned that the Goofy Golf sign was sent to the Commission for their comments and not for a decision. Mr. Zych said he does not understand that remark. Chairman Andrews explained that the Commission was not the power- making body, just the recommending body. Merwin Willman suggested that maybe the word "comments" be changed to "recommendation ", but Mr. Zych said he understands Chairman Andrews' explanation and has no problem with it as written. Going on to page 5, paragraph 3, where Mr. Willman pointed out that the request from the citizens was forwarded to the Board of Adjustment for a decision, Leonard Zych asked for clarification. Who is the Board of Adjustment? Merwin Willman pointed out that the Board of Adjustment is City Council and told Mr. Zych if he would read the City Charter he would see where it says the Board of Adjustment will be the City Council. -3- Leonard Zych then requested that on page 6, paragraph 4, second sentence, the phrase "thank God" be removed because it lends nothing to the comments. Mr. Zych stated that concluded his comments on the minutes. Chairman Andrews noted that if there were no other questions on the minutes, the Chair would entertain a motion. Merwin Willman made a motion to approve the minutes, as amended, for the regular session August 25, 1992. George Vick seconded the motion and the vote was unanimous in favor. Motion carried. #3 CITIZENS' INPUT OTHER THAN AGENDA ITEMS There was none. #4 CONSIDER AND MARE RECOMMENDATION: Comprehensive Plan Update Chairman Andrews informed the Commission there was nothing scheduled for the agenda so he asked Steve Simonson to put this item on so the Commission could sit and.talk about it in an attempt to get off dead center and start moving forward in the right direction. Mr. Andrews reminded the Commission copies had been made for them of things he had from several APA conferences about the direction a Comprehensive Plan should take. Mr. Andrews asked Norma Althouse to find copies of the letter signed by all the Commissioners about their commitment to the Comprehensive Plan and the letter sent by Steve Simonson to all the departments requesting their 5 -year plans and any further forecasts. Merwin Willman admitted that now that the letter they all signed is mentioned he does remember it, but he had forgotten it since it was so long ago. Chairman Andrews commented he thinks it was written and signed in 1989, but he's not sure. George Vick mentioned that letter was originated from Mary Marsh and she had an elaborate timetable laid out for the different stages needed to complete the Comprehensive Plan. Chairman Andrews called the Commission's attention to two letters typed up for them by Leonard Zych. One is.titled "One Person's View of Comprehensive Planning" and the other expresses his frustration as a Planning and Zoning Commissioner. -4- Leonard Zych explained why he wrote the letters. Mr. Zych said he realizes he has created some animosity here, and it was not intentional, but he tried to speak his thoughts. Mr. Zych remarked he also realizes he is probably on tenuous ground and his reappointment may not be approved, but if it is not, fine. So be it. Mr. Zych commented he thinks he has a right and an obligation to say what he truly believes regarding the Comprehensive Plan. Mr. Zych said, if the Commission recalls, they had some discussion the last time about what should constitute the Comprehensive Plan. He thought it might be helpful to all of them if he put in words what he thinks about comprehensive planning. It is an attempt to stimulate debate and move them forward. Chairman Andrews informed Mr. Zych that as much as he may think he created a lot of animosity, sometimes a maverick is not a bad place to be and occasionally we all need one. Mr. Andrews continued on saying we do need to sit down and work on the Comprehensive Plan -.it has got to go forward. Where all the guidance is going to come from is a good question. We have a lot of paperwork containing a lot of good.ideas. Chairman Andrews mentioned that Steve Simonson has worked up some goals, objectives and rationale. This is a good beginning and Mr. Simonson had indicated his desire to put together more goals and objectives. Chairman Andrews commented right now he is looking for input. We have enough paperwork and some goals and objectives. Do we need to set up a citizen panel or a public hearing? Merwin Willman has pushed for this ever since we started with the Comprehensive Plan. Chairman Andrews noted the one problem he has with a public hearing is that before we can have one, there need to be some definitive guidelines laid out as to the kind of input we're looking for instead of just opening the floor to debate. There needs to be an agenda so the citizens who come in to voice their opinions are not coming out of left field to complain about potholes, the schools or the churches, all of which we have no control over. Leonard Zych told Chairman Andrews all that's correct, but he wants to take the citizens' point of view. Yes, there are certain things the Commission and City Council have no control over and potholes are not a good candidate for planning, but if you truly want citizen input, potholes have been a continuing problem and taxpayers who live here have a concern about them. If the plan of the past and of today doesn't suit their needs, or appears not to, then it at least ought to be an item for consideration for future planning. How much of our resources should we commit to those kinds of things and what is the -5- relative importance? Mr. Zych said that's where there's a big difference of opinion between what he thinks and what a lot of others here think. Mr. Zych continued on saying believe it or not, he would just like to put on the table that the citizens who were on the various Visions Committees that were formed were (1) stifled by pre- agenda items, and (2) controlled by City members. You did not have a free - flowing group of citizens. Instead, you had a City representative conducting each meeting. Mr. Zych said a member of his family belonged to one of the groups and when he showed them the report that came from that group, which Steve Simonson had given him, the family member indicated it didn't contain the things the citizens were concerned about. It contained the agenda of the person in charge. Continuing on, Mr. Zych pointed out that if you're going to have legitimate citizen input, they're going to come off target with things they think you can do which you can't. If you're going to have a group of citizens do what they think is their thing, then it doesn't work to have a City department head be in there and filter the information without providing copies to the members, and that has happened. If you want citizen input, you can't choke it off. Chairman Andrews asked how much time Mr. Zych planned on giving each citizen to speak. Leonard Zych replied he wasn't talking about an open forum and told Mr. Andrews the Commissioners all have a better idea on that than he does. Mr. Zych went on to say he thinks the individual groups were good, but he takes issue with the group leader publishing a report without members seeing it ahead of time, or afterwards, that contains very few of the issues they entered into serious dialogue about. Mr. Zych said he is specifically talking about the parks and recreation group. Mr. Zych said, as he understands it, the group got together and designated where they wanted jogging trails and parks and gave some ideas of how they thought Schertz ought to grow, and they were told by the person running the meeting "you can't do that, the money's not there, it has to be budgeted." This was legitimate input and it was choked off and the report was sent in that the citizen members never saw or signed off on. That's not right. In reference to Mr. Andrews question about a given time to speak, Mr. Zych said a public meeting is a different thing. Chairman Andrews stated he is talking about a public meeting. Leonard Zych emphasized that if you choke off input at these sub - meetings, you can't expect citizens to come forward at a public meeting. At a public meeting they can speak for their mom allotted time, but Mr. Zych indicated he doesn't think they will. Chairman Andrews agreed and mentioned we've never had much response in the past. As for the Visions Committees, Mr. Andrews admitted he couldn't speak about those because he wasn't on one and didn't see any reports. Merwin Willman added that the Commission had nothing to do with the Visions Committee meetings. Leonard Zych observed that, oh yes, we want to wash our hands of that and not take responsibility, and City Council will take the same view. Merwin Willman asked how we can be responsible. We had nothing to do with setting up the committees. At this point, Leonard Zych asked who is going to be responsible. Merwin Willman accused Mr. Zych of talking about two different things.' First, he talks about something in the past and then he talks about the future. George Vick stressed that no, he's not talking about two different things. We asked for citizen input. Mr. Vick said he was on that same committee. They discussed things that would be nice to have in Schertz. A report was supposedly to be made and brought back to the members and never was. This is the first he's heard that a report was even turned in. Mr. Vick said two people he knows were told by the person in charge not to talk about certain things because the City can't do that, there's no funds available. The citizens informed the person in charge he had asked for their input, and since he didn't want it, they no longer wanted to serve on the committee. Merwin Willman indicated his agreement with the citizens, but said it's something the Commission has no control over. George Vick pointed out we do have control over citizen input if we have an open forum. Leonard Zych commented to Merwin Willman that if we're planning, then we're planning, and if this was the vehicle and it was denied, then we need to address that issue. Merwin Willman remarked he looks at it like this. Say we go to a Homeowners Association, we sit down and talk to them and tell them why we're there and explain we're looking for items the City should look at for the future. If you let them talk about things, like potholes, that are bothering them today, you'll never get anything out of them about the future. -7- We want ideas about where they think a street should go, where we should have parks, where they should have jogging trails, etc., not how much it's going to cost. As far as the Comprehensive Plan goes, forget about the cost. Maybe eventually, the cost is going to be prohibitive, but right now we want ideas. Leonard Zych expressed the fact he couldn't be in more agreement, but this committee gave their ideas and they were choked off. These citizens were concerned enough to attend all the meetings and then comes a report that no one has ever seen and has the format of the person in charge. Chairman Andrews, acknowledging that Leonard Zych is aware of what has happened, asked him how we prevent that from happening in going forward. Mr. Andrews stressed we have to go forward and citizen input is the next available thing. We have all our goals and objectives even though they're not adequately stated. Leonard Zych disagreed. Chairman Andrews then revised his comments to say some are very accurately stated. To this, Mr. Zych said some are and some are not. Chairman Andrews noted that when he makes a statement, it's a broad statement. He would venture to say we have at least 98% of the plan completed. It has to be put in the correct format and verbiage and put down on paper. We have a lot of visionary planning that still needs to be done because the visionary planning hasn't been touched yet. Leonard Zych, speaking along that line, said if you look at older /established Schertz, you have a park in close proximity. What about some of the newer areas where there are no parks, no jogging trails, no fire stations? A group of concerned citizens asked why they can't have those things. Chairman Andrews mentioned that we have already foreseen that very problem as evidenced in the planning regulations. When an individual comes in and develops a subdivision, he must either dedicate land or supply funds for parks and recreation. Greenshire has a jogging trail so designated. Leonard Zych observed that Woodland Oaks and Savannah Square don't and they have 47 times the population of Greenshire. That's one of the issues, one of the recommendations that never surfaced. You can shoot recommendations down, but why.can't it surface as citizen input. Chairman Andrews replied it can surface. Leonard Zych insisted that it didn't. Chairman Andrews, explaining that he didn't know whether it did or not, commented he is not talking about the past, he is talking about the future. Leonard Zych noted the past is only this report from parks and recreation after the supposed letter from Steve Simonson. This report is recent history. Steve Simonson assured Leonard Zych it is not a supposed letter, it is real, and he will furnish him a copy. Leonard Zych said he stands corrected and he apologizes. Steve Simonson went on to say he was on one of the Visions Committees and Ken Greenwald was on another and told Leonard Zych to be honest, it is Jerry Graham that led the committee he has been complaining about. Steve Simonson formally requested, on behalf of the City Manager, that if there is a problem about a report being turned in that contained no input from the citizens, that those citizens let him, or Mr. Sweatt, or Mark Marquez know. Mr. Simonson continued on, saying that more than once he was not even in the room while his meeting was going on. He supplied the paperwork, provided the people his committee wanted, and stayed out of the way. When a final report was sent in, it was signed by the people on the committee. That was his understanding of how the Visions Committees should be set up. Over half of the Visions Committees fell by the wayside because there were no citizens, after the initial meetings, that wanted to participate. We didn't get reports back except from a few. If there was a problem with the committee headed by Jerry Graham, Mr. Simonson said he needs to hear from those citizens that were on that committee. Leonard Zych asked Steve Simonson if he hadn't given him a copy to look at of the parks and recreation Visions Committee document signed by the chairman of that committee and Mr. Simonson replied yes he had. Leonard Zych then asked Steve Simonson if it was signed by the members of that committee and Mr. Simonson stated he was not told that none of the members of the committee had never seen the document. Leonard Zych reminded Steve Simonson he had stated just a minute ago the report should have been signed and Steve Simonson advised Mr. Zych that what he had said was that the report from his committee was signed. Leonard Zych noted then, that for clarification of the record he would like to ask Steve Simonson if the report from parks and recreation was signed by anyone other than the chairman of that committee. Mr. Simonson answered that he really did not remember. Leonard Zych said he thought that answer was a cop out. Steve Simonson defended his answer saying it is not a cop out and then informed Leonard Zych he is tired of the innuendos Mr. Zych is putting on him and the other people here at the meeting. We are all trying to do the same thing. What he's trying to say is he really doesn't remember if the parks and recreation report was signed by anyone other than the chairman of the committee. He did not consider it a big deal and was told at the time it was a preliminary report. Now he is hearing that none of the citizens on the committee saw the report and the report didn't contain the input that was supposed to come forward from them. Mr. Simonson further said he is asking, for the record, that those committee members let him know what the problems were so they can be corrected since the City asked for citizen input and that was the whole purpose of the committees. Steve Simonson then asked Councilman Ken Greenwald if his committee's report was signed by everyone and Mr. Greenwald replied no, but it was a letter agreed to by everyone on the committee. Leonard Zych asked Steve Simonson if he had received a final report and Mr. Simonson replied he had not. Leonard Zych then asked George Vick if he had received a copy of the preliminary report. Mr. Vick related they were at the meeting and Jerry Graham had all the notes assimilated and said he would put them together, bring them back for everyone to look over and agree upon, and submit a preliminary report to Steve Simonson. Steve Simonson observed that's probably what he got. George Vick related he had never seen the report. Chairman Andrews asked if a second meeting was ever held and Mr. Vick replied not to his knowledge. George Vick, at this time, asked to make one other comment. Mr. Vick said they were informed by Mark Marquez these committees were set up to gather information so it could be submitted and incorporated into the Comprehensive Plan. Mr. Marquez told them to let their imaginations run wild and the City would take all this information and use it toward the -10- development of the Comprehensive Plan. Mr. Vick brought up the fact that now they're saying they need more citizen input and stressed we'll get the same information from the citizens that we got before. Merwin Willman, at this point, said he would like to withdraw all his comments about citizen participation. George Vick repeated again that he thought we were getting citizen input from the Visions Committees. Merwin Willman indicated that what we have here are seven different ideas of what a Comprehensive Plan should entail and Leonard Zych concurred. Chairman Andrews remarked that's what he said the last time and that's our biggest problem right now. Merwin Willman observed that's what we've had since we began this process in 1989 and until we get off dead center and everyone has a meeting of the minds, we might as well forget it. Steve Simonson has written thousands and thousands of words and still we're going nowhere. Leonard Zych agreed. Merwin Willman further commented we say we want goals and objectives and so they're written up, and then we change our minds. Mr. Willman said, as far as he's concerned, some of the states have laws which might be what we need to use as a guide. Chairman Andrews noted that they've pretty much agreed that goals and objectives will accomplish what they want. What he doesn't think they've agreed on is how encompassing and how definitive the Comprehensive Plan should be. Merwin Willman theorized that's because he doesn't think anyone understands how encompassing each item should be. Chairman Andrews related that the way he looks at the Comprehensive Plan and the way Leonard Zych looks at it are hundreds of miles apart. It should cover overall objectives and guidelines and then we have the Zoning Ordinance and the Subdivision Ordinance which get into the definitive part and that's where he's losing it with Mr. Zych. Mr. Zych looks at it as being more specific in nature. Leonard Zych clarified his thoughts. All the ordinances cover the day to day things as they exist right now. Most are based on logic, experience and sound wisdom of the past and probably should continue into the future, but maybe a small portion of those would change due to events that occur within the City. For example, we're probably going to experience a larger growth than first thought in real estate due to navigator training -11- being shipped into RAFB. Retama may be big. Other things like that could have an impact. If you want a Comprehensive Plan, you need an honest attempt to solicit and respond to citizen and business input and this cannot be choked off. Let's be fair, the majority of those who make the City run are City employees. They have a pretty good input, if we can consider it, as to where we ought to go. Then there are the people who were elected and are entrusted by the citizens, and those who were appointed, such as the Planning and Zoning Commission, that should have a view not vested in profit and not tied to City departments. They should be able to plan for what is in the best interest of the City of Schertz. Mr. Zych said he doesn't think he and the Commission are far apart when he puts it that way. Chairman Andrews, referring back to parks and recreation, said we've all indicated we need parks in the Woodland Oaks area. The Comprehensive Plan in not the vehicle that will drive that. Leonard. Zych asked what will if it's not the Comprehensive Plan. Chairman Andrews replied the Subdivision Ordinance will drive that. We're already seeing, as of this past weekend, that more homes are being build in both Woodland Oaks and Savannah Square. The next thing will be another subdivision behind Woodland Oaks and Savannah Square and our Subdivision Ordinance specifically states that a developer of a subdivision must either dedicate land or provide money for parks and recreation. Leonard Zych asked what about existing developments. What's wrong with citizen input being there as part of the Comprehensive Plan? What's wrong with saying we'd like to have a park in the northeast quadrant of the City, say by 1995? Mr. Zych, once again, mentioned citizen input being choked off by the chairman of one of the Visions Committees. Merwin Willman Committee was citizens need their case as Planning and solve it. had a suggestion for Mr. as bad as what they're to come to a City Council it has been outlined he Zoning, can't do anything Zych. If the Visions hearing, then those meeting and present re tonight. We, as about it. We can't Mr. Willman also pointed out that we've got to learn what's happened in the past. The subdivisions we have now were built prior to some of our ordinances, prior to our parks and recreation chapter of our ordinance, so unfortunately they can't comply. The only thing that can be done is that it goes in as part of the Comprehensive Plan that we want a park in that area of the City. Then it is looked at in the future to see how that can be accomplished. -12- Leonard Zych acknowledged that he and Mr. Willman are saying the same thing right now. Chairman Andrews commented he would have to look it up, but he thinks under the parks and recreation section of the Comprehensive Plan we mention we want a park in the northeast section of the City as it grows. Merwin Willman remarked we're getting so detailed. He would like to see us say that, based on growth, by 1993, 1994, etc. we'd like to have parks here and here and here and a mixture of business and residential here and here and here. Chairman Andrews mentioned that part of Savannah Square's development has a jogging trail. The Master Plan showed a jogging trail on the outskirts of it. Leonard Zych.asked if it's going to occur in 3001 or what, and Mr. Andrews replied as growth develops. Leonard Zych asked how much more we're going to build out there and Chairman Andrews replied he couldn't say for sure. Once again Mr. Zych mentioned citizen input being choked off by the chairman of the parks and recreation Visions Committee. Merwin Willman asked Leonard Zych if Savannah Square has a homeowners association and was informed they do. Chairman Andrews told Steve Simonson he will stop by and see him and he would like to take a .look at the parks and recreation report for himself. Merwin Willman indicated that maybe, like mentioned before, the biggest problem is the nomenclature in using "Comprehensive Plan." Mr. Willman had an article from Connecticut where it says it's a state law that they remove the language of "Comprehensive Plan" and substitute instead "Plan of Development." Mr. Willman said, to him, that makes it clearer and more understandable. Chairman Andrews asked.if there's any further discussion on the Comprehensive Plan tonight. Leonard Zych requested some kind of summary as to where Chairman Andrews thinks we are on the Comprehensive Plan. Mr. Andrews offered the following summary. (1) We are in a high state of confusion as to what a Comprehensive Plan should entail. (2) It should be checked whether or not the Visions Committee reports have been submitted and how complete the citizen input portions of them are. And, (3) we are still going to have to sit down sometime and develop exactly what is going to have to be entailed in our Comprehensive Plan. -13- Chairman Andrews reported he will check with Steve Simonson tomorrow to see if the parks and recreation report was preliminary or final. There will be a copy of Mr. Simonson's letter to all the departments in the next package. There will also be a copy of the letter all the Commissioners signed (making a commitment to update the Comprehensive Plan) in the next package. Mr. Andrews said he will also check to see if more information came back from the departments since Steve Simonson's letter was sent out. Leonard Zych noted that they talked a while back about getting input from various groups, City and community, and had set some time frames. We're probably beyond those time frames now. Mr. Zych said he tried to write a letter to point out to the Commission that we're all in a state of confusion about the Comprehensive Plan. He doesn't see any backing from City Council. He does see a lot of push from the Planning and Zoning Chairman which he supports and applauds. Mr. Zych commented if he says unplanned growth in the future will be an economic disaster, be driven by private interests and vested interests by incumbents of the City, a lot of people don't like those words, but that's what happens unless we say here's where we want to go in the future. It shouldn't be left to a few isolated individuals with vested interests. When you have a plan and that plan is based on the mandate of the people, then you. can change as conditions change, then you have a healthy environment. When we have "smoke- filled" rooms and a City Council where decisions are made on the spur of the moment based on whatever input is there, Mr. Zych said he suggests that is not as good as if you have an overall plan. Whatever would come up would be matched against the plan and challenged by the worthiness of that. Chairman Andrews commented to Leonard Zych he had sat and listened to everything he said, and maybe it went over him, but he heard him talk about the problems we're having without saying anything about how to get past those problems and move forward. Chairman Andrews then asked Leonard Zych if that's what he did, or did he (Mr. Andrews) miss it. Leonard Zych responded by saying he didn't want to say selective listening, but some words have more impact than others. Mr. Zych continued on. Let's give credit to the people who are here and who came before. Schertz is a wonderful place to live. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being super, because of the efforts of many people who have served, it would be someplace between an 8 and a 10, but it's time to move on. As much as we've grown and as great as our potential is, it's time to gather us all together and plan for the future. Mr. Zych suggested that where we stand for the future is protracted, logical, dedicated growth between 2 and 8% depending on how the numbers flow for any given year and we ought to be able to do -14- the demographics of that growth and commit resources to that plan. We don't just write a plan, put it on the books, and let City Council meet week after week and not be driven by the plan. We need the plan, but there is no sense in doing it. if it's not going to be the driver of our future. Chairman Andrews asked Leonard Zych if he feels it won't be the driver of our future. Mr. Zych responded by saying that's why he wrote the second letter on the Goofy Golf sign. We had all this discussion and the final impact was that one of the owners who never bothered to come to Planning and Zoning, despite the invitation, got up in a workshop and said this is it and everybody rolled over - you got it, write a contract and you can have it. All the discussion we had here about ownership, the non - conformity of the sign, the violation of our own ordinances and the close proximity to the street, and the mixing of private signs and a public domain was never presented. If we can allow this for one, can we do it for 2, 20, or 200. Councilman Greenwald tried to say a few words, but it was kind of like whoosh, there was this nice person with a smile, and there it went. Mr. Zych told Chairman Andrews he doesn't.think they ever read the letter from the Commission, so now we enter into a situation where a business community can have a sign on public property, and Mr. Zych wanted the Commission to know he is upset. Mr. Zych said he got the feeling from this Commission they were trying to control how Schertz looks. Mr. Zych explained the sign in not important, what bothers him is the process. We deliberated and deliberated and got no input from the owner and then he shows up at a workshop, a motion isn't even made, and a consensus is established outside the ordinary trend of events and whoosh! What good is Planning and Zoning? If that wasn't our agenda, don't bring it here, but once we entertain it, why isn't our input respected. Chairman Andrews asked if City Council did anything different than what we recommended. Leonard Zych answered he didn't know because as he pointed out in his letter, the minutes of the workshop, as of last Friday, were not available nor were the minutes of the subsequent City Council meeting. He asked Councilman Greenwald tonight if he brought it up in Council and was told they came to a consensus at the workshop. Mr. Zych noted that where he comes from, a workshop is where you mull it over and discuss it, but you leave the decision for the Council meeting. A contradictory example is the action on the convenience stores which was approved in a formal Council meeting. -15- Leonard Zych wondered why we are without a motion, and what appears to be without the guidance of Planning and Zoning, saying to the DuPlantis' it's okay to put your sign up in a non - conforming area and mix public business with City business. So what if we do a Comprehensive Plan? It's flushed down the toilet. Mr. Zych said that's his concern and asked what happened on the Goofy Golf sign. Chairman Andrews replied he didn't know what happened, but that's a side issue and we need to get back to the Comprehensive Plan. Merwin Willman reiterated that the Council asked us for our comments, but we're not the decision - making body. It's up to them. Leonard Zych once again stated that the Commission's comments were not presented. Merwin Willman pointed out we have no control over whether or not they read everything in their packages. Chairman Andrews asked Councilman Greenwald what all he has on the Goofy Golf sign. Mr. Greenwald answered he has letters and comments dating all the way back to May, 1992 and a copy of the Commission's recommendation. There was a consensus at the workshop to let the City Manager draw up a contract. Leonard Zych wanted to know if that kind of decision should be made at a workshop or at a formal Council meeting. Councilman Greenwald asked what was wrong with making it at a workshop since any contract drawn up will have to come before the Council for final approval. . Leonard Zych commented to Mr. Greenwald, that to be fair, he did not present all the issues because he was cut off. Merwin Willman stepped in and expressed the opinion he doesn't think it's the ex- officio's responsibility to defend the Commission's decisions to City Council. Getting back to the issue at hand, Chairman Andrews asked Leonard Zych if he thinks they won't be able to go forward on the Comprehensive Plan without City Council support. Leonard Zych commented they didn't get a fair shake on the sign, so what's going to happen on bigger issues. We need an advocate, or need to relegate ourselves to the point of view that we're here to deliberate and send forward things that will be entertained only at the whim and desire of the City Council to the degree they think it's appropriate. -16- Chairman Andrews asked Steve Simonson if any kind of agreement was drawn up on the sign. Mr. Simonson said it is his understanding a draft has been drawn up and will be discussed at the next workshop. The DuPlantis' have been given a copy for their input. Nothing will be signed until Council okays the contract. Chairman Andrews repeated what he had said at the last meeting about the fact that City Council over the years has reversed, on very few occasions, recommendations sent forward to them from the Commission. Mr. Andrews informed the Commission that by the next meeting he will see if he can't draw up something definitive to get them moving forward on the Comprehensive Plan. They've discussed the shortcomings of the Visions Committees and past procedures, but they need to come to some kind of agreement on how to move forward and how in depth the Comprehensive Plan should be. Mr. Andrews asked if everyone agreed to that. The answer was yes. #5 GENERAL DISCUSSION George Vick (a) Mentioned the Commission needs a Vice - Chairman and needs to find a replacement for Jim Shriver. (Mr. Shriver passed away September 3rd.) Steve Simonson noted that three of the Commissioners are due to be reappointed this October. Chairman Andrews suggested checking with those due for reappointment and seeing if they wish to stay on, and then advised Mr. Simonson to go ahead and advertise the opening on the Commission. Leonard Zych: (a) Asked where he can go and who he can talk to to get definitive information as to how the Planning and Zoning Commission relates to the process of the City. Chairman Andrews recommended talking to City Council and also looking over the Planning and Zoning Rules of Procedure. Merwin Willman suggested reading the Ordinance creating the Planning and Zoning Commission. Mr. Zych remarked he finds that ordinance to be rather wishy -washy and Mr. Willman said he's sorry it doesn't meet Mr. Zych's standards. -17- Chairman Andrews added that he thinks that ordinance was written deliberately not to be definitive in nature. Councilman Ken Greenwald: (a) Reported that the request from Mr. and Mrs. Coons to put a 12' x 20' metal storage building in their backyard was turned down. It got to the point where all of Council was threatened. The Coons' didn't want to compromise. They wanted all or nothing at all. Chairman Andrews: (a) Related that Jim Shriver will be sorely missed. Mr. Andrews commented he doesn't think we will feel the full impact of his passing for sometime to come. George Vick informed the Commission that Mack Kardy had passed away and Chairman Andrews related that Ann Richard was in the hospital and not doing too well at the moment. #6 ADJOURNMENT Chairman Andrews adjourned the meeting at 8:30 P.M. The next regularly scheduled meeting is September 22, 1992. am